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What did you think?
Ooh Baby Heaven is a Place on Earth - Excellent 24%  24%  [ 9 ]
Heaven 17 - Good 32%  32%  [ 12 ]
Heaven Can Wait - average 19%  19%  [ 7 ]
Highway to Heaven - poor 16%  16%  [ 6 ]
Heaven's Gate - damn it to hell 8%  8%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 37
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:46 pm 
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But Yay! Chris Addison was vapourised! So that was good...............


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:01 pm 
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I... mostly fucking hated that. Sorry. The first episode I've voted "poor" in ages. Since before Curse of the Black Spot, because that was dire. I didn't give it a dire rating because I did like a few things in it. But so much of it was cringeworthy, insulting and stupid. Actually seeing the Brig as a Cybe? Fuck off. Actually fuck off. I figured Danny could control himself, and his inhibitor wasn't activated because he hadn't pressed "delete", but then did the Brig not press "delete" either? Just those two? Or is it coz they're super special? Or is it because reasons?

No, I'm sorry, there are cheap emotional ploys and there's showing the Brig perverted and abused as a cheap emotional ploy. I wasn't sure whether I wanted to vomit or punch something more. It's even worse now that Nick Courtney is no longer with us. That's exploiting both in-universe and real life emotions, and for what? A salute?

I said last week I wasn't sold on Missy's characterisation, and this week did little to improve my opinion. I'm not a fan of novelty tie wackiness.

OSGOOD? WHAT? This is what bugs me when people compare Moffat with Rowling/Whedon/Martin for killing people off. When they kill
off beloved characters it means something. Why was Osgood killed? To prove Missy is evil? Because no one was previously aware of that.

Coleman and Capaldi acted their socks off. The Cybes flying off looked brilliant. The Doctor finally coming to terms with who he is is about bloody time, but good. The Night of the Living Dead homage was so on the nose I said "They're coming to get you, Clara" and then I was sad because Pat Tallman didn't turn up with a machine gun.

But most of all I feel a bit sick and really cross. Goddammit.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:26 pm 
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Overall I voted poor - this was not a finale or was a middle section and although I liked Capaldi and Gomez the rest felt flabby

Will think on it


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:46 pm 
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Hmm. Not sure. I think I need to watch that again to form a proper opinion. Which in itself isn't really a positive endorsement is it?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 12:06 am 
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That was ok. Not brilliant, but not awful either. Some funny lines and some decent action, but some bits you could see a mile off - I guessed the wristband would end up with Danny after his anti-officer rant, although in 25 years of working alongside service people of all shapes and sizes, I've never met anyone who has that venomous a view of officers. It just seemed like a very clunky plot device to drive the character and I just found it a little insulting to people I know.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 12:33 am 
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I'm gonna go with my 1st impression and say ..great.
The Doctor finally got his moment. The Danny storyline got a pay off. The cyber zombie graveyard scene was proper scary. Mary Poppins.
There was a lot of things to like.
I have to question if the pay offs are worth the frustrating interludes in the series, but as an hours entertainment it was cool.

PS I wrong about Clara saving the day. Danny did

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 1:00 am 
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I liked that a lot. I'm still not sold on Missy/Master but I think that's cos I don't really like Michelle Gomez as she plays every character the same. I loved the messing with the viewers head opening titles with Clara's eyes after she said she was The Doctor and could hear certain posters going GrrrrMofffffaaaatttt in my head. The idea of her pretending to be The Doctor to fool the Cybermen was ok if slightly flawed it showed her guts/instinct but surely if the cybermen could scan her and identify her as Clara they'd also pick up the single heartbeat/purely human DNA.

There were many strong character moments this episode and again I actually found dead Danny more likeable than the live one. The scene with Clara & Dan Dan The Cyberman in the graveyard was emotional without being overly cloying. I don't understand people going on about how are only Danny and the Brig the only still emotionally connected Cybermen, they are the only ones we see but that doesn't mean there weren't others spread over the rest of the world just that they weren't integral to the plot. I liked that Danny wasn't brought back at the end as that would have cheapened his actions. I liked the Brig as a cyberman moment and seeing his portrait on the UNIT plane was also a nice touch. I seriously thought that they were going to go for the Osgood as next companion route but instead Moffat went for the good old Whedon sucker punch, looking at other sites Osgood seemed a lot more popular than I'd have thought, to me she was an ok fun character but some people are mourning her like she was a long standing major character not just a briefly glimpsed cosplay Doctor fan of course there is always the potential it wasn't the real Osgood it was the Zygon one cop out. Despite me not overly liking Missy, I did like the idea of her plot being basically an elaborate mindgame with The Doctor to see if by offering him the Cyber-army she could make or break him. The question is, who fired first, The Doctor or CyberBrig cos the way Missy disintegrated looked quite similar to the teleport effect seen in Time Heist and The Doctor was not firing the device in the same way she'd been pointing it to kill earlier with the red openings but from the edge (unless he was going for a Tarantino-style hold gun on it's side cool look)

The Doctor skydiving into the TARDIS felt a bit too flashy for Capaldi's Doctor but then again at the speed he'd have been falling materialising it around him would have probably caused a major splat moment. The skydive did end with a splat since Seb was blasted for his frankly dumb squeeeee.

I really liked the final scenes, The Doctor's frustration/anger at falling for The Master's lie (tho I did feel a bit sorry for the TARDIS, could that count as spousal abuse?), the "Never trust a hug" line (the look on Capaldi's face was almost heartbreaking) and then the almost old school parting of the ways with Clara choosing to leave and try to get her life back in order and then they do that xmas special link making us realise her story isn't quite over (one of those rare moments where I went GrrrrMofffaaattt)


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 1:13 am 
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One thing I'd like to say. Do we really believe that The Master is dead? Or indeed that anyone "disintegrated" by Missy's device thingy is actually dead? It was all too pat for me, I fully expect them all (well, all the imortant ones) to come back at a later date.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:11 am 
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Watched this one late tonight. Ahh, what a lacklustre season finale. This was mid-season fare really.

Before I go on, here's what I expected from earlier in the thread:
Perdide wrote:
I would still like to see the Cybermen become scary again and have a nice rounded resolution to questions set up. Though I fully expect it to not and let them flop over to the Christmas episode.

I also suspect Clara will exit in some fashion, miss Christmas and come back next season in some form.


So, Clara left, won't be in Christmas special and will no doubt return Tegan style next series.

And, well. Breaking out of the graves was cool, possibly quite scary but then just standing around doing nothing...? Wow, that's terrifying. :sarcasm:

We've gone from Age of Steel to Iron Man!! Was this a joke at people who said the new cyberman design looked like it came from Stark Industries??

I know people will assume that I'd hate the opening and Clara's eyes in the titles, no, no I didn't because I assumed it was her bullshitting the cyberman. And it was. The eyes in the titles was just another Moff fanbait moment and obviously so and therefore quite dismissible.

It is ironic that Danny has been at his best after being killed and cyberised. The scenes with him and Clara in the graveyard were good, though.

Missy was just chewing as much scenery as possible. I know people said Ainley was camp and Eric Roberts gave it his best shot and Simm hammed it to the 10th degree but Missy... Wow.

Those soldiers were crap, they didn't notice her putting lipstick on? She moves like greased lightning? They're still stood there? DW production team, please find a new extras agency or give them some minor direction! Were they related to those "scientists" on the Space Express??

Why Osgood? What purpose did that serve? Pointless and more than that, achieved nothing. Kate... We'll come back to.

The cyberman plan was to release "Chubby Rain"... Did Moff watch Bowfinger before writing this? Plus it still smacks of Star Trek nano probes and assimilation. Given they've never been fussed about cyberising the living before why didn't the rain work on them too? You needed them to volunteer by pressing Delete? Guess so. It would have made their previous adventures less scary if instead of capturing people and converting them, they captured them and made them fill in some paperwork!! In fact that would have been a better premise; organ donor sir?? Why come this way...

And finally, CyberBrig. Knowing Moff, we didn't see him self-terminate so who thinks he'll turn up again in a future UNIT story sporting a military green paintjob from the neck down and a moustache??

And there was a healthy dose of Telemovie channelling in the morgue. We've not got an explanation for these co-incidences yet. If we ever will.

Santa. No worse than Robin Hood. I hear Peter Pan is in the next series. :longwink: Though Nick Frost is not a favourite of mine at all.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:00 am 
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I liked it, but thought it fell short of great. The Emotional cues worked for me which I think helps. I always have a wry smile at the fan baiting but come on moff, you should be above that. Doctor, Clara & Missy were all on form as well.

The main problem was the actual threat. It wasn't threatening enough. The Cybermen trash a plane and that's it. They could have been anything. I know it is a bit abstract but they just seemed like they could ahve been a maguffin of the week. It could have been robozombies or magic re-animated corpses. They weren't Cybermanny enough if that makes sense. As a result the end felt a bit anti-climactic. Shame as I rather liked the Doctor's speech "I'm not an officer, not a president, I am.... An idiot"

I really wish they hadn't killed Osgood though. Decent character and the death was pointless and really didn't pack the emotional pinch for me. And yes, those guards were useless. I'd have prefered for them to already be dead or something.

So yes, I expect a bit more punch from a finale, if this had been the end of a mid-season 2 part story I'd have been more on board.

I rather liked Santa at the end though.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:48 am 
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PieMan70 wrote:
I really wish they hadn't killed Osgood though. Decent character and the death was pointless and really didn't pack the emotional pinch for me. And yes, those guards were useless. I'd have prefered for them to already be dead or something.


on first viewing I thought they were. They were very VERY still and blank faced (although some actors are like thay all the time). Then Missy disintegratrd them. There was a great sense of menace in the scene but I was gutted as to how it finished.
On Missy. I thought she just did a great rip off of Jack Nicholsons Joker. Deadly, manic and with some great dialogue

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:09 am 
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But did Missy kill Osgood, or just her Zygon duplicate.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:14 am 
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Also, did anyone think they deliberatly made Danny's helmet reveal make him look like this?

Image


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:34 am 
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I enjoyed it.
I did get a little annoyed with Missy as she came across too manic in her plot to put temptation in front of the Doctor. And the killing of Osgood was perplexing to me, but like others have said...is it the Zygon version?

I liked the little touches, the homage to Old Who.
Dan the Cyber had great moments.


It made me cry and smile. When an episode can do that, I consider it good.

I want to see what the Christmas Special will bring too.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:49 am 
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glunark wrote:
Also, did anyone think they deliberatly made Danny's helmet reveal make him look like this?

Image

Thank you - knew it was familiar from somewhere


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 12:50 pm 
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Well I really enjoyed it, much to my surprise. There was a moment during the teaser where I really did want Clara to be the Doctor, and I thought the titles, and putting Jenna's name above Capaldi's was a clever little trick.

Missy was just a bit too manic for me, always preferred the Master to be played a little more cold psychopath than"bananas". Sorry that Osgood got zapped, but glad Kate Stewart made it out alive.

Really liked Capaldi's Doctor taking shape at the end, he's been excellent all season, and if this is Clara's last hurrah, then I will be sorry to see her go.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 1:07 pm 
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My overall thoughts about this episode are summed up in one nice neat word - Embarrassing.
If some people (includind several on here) had a problem with the cremation line last week, then how will an army of CyberDead go down? And yet, that was not the worst of it...
It was so shit, I am actually having difficulty in thinking what to write. It didn't make me angry as some have, because at least I can then have a rant. This was just more like a very bad spoof, written by someone who had never seen Dr Who before, or at the very least; had once 40 years ago. Last week didn't quite reach my low expectation, but this one certainly went far below them.
Would somebody mind telling me: In what way were the Cybermen - the 2nd most iconic enemy, but often poorly used - at their "scariest" (as promised by Moffat), when all they did was look through a window, stand around doing nothing in a graveyard, and give a performance of the National Cyber Aerobics Team. That last one really was one of the most Cuthbertcringeworthy scenes for a long time.
As for "Love is not an emotion, it is a promise.", well I like a laugh but it wasn't meant to be funny now was it? Then to add insult to all the dead people, they were turned into an army after a short 'Independence Day' speech by the previously emotionless Pink - Oh well never mind, who cares about reality when people cry if the music tells them to?
I wish that had been the last thing to have been awful, but no Moffat has to quite literally dig up the grave and crap all over the memory of The Brigadier - PLEASE JUST MAKE IT STOP!!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:22 pm 
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glunark wrote:
Also, did anyone think they deliberatly made Danny's helmet reveal make him look like this?

Image

Nope, Cybermen wouldn't be seen dead in gold. Tee hee.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:31 pm 
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Enjoyed that.
Not as good as part 1, but on the whole enjoyable.

I am sure the pre Credit stuff had some people scared :lucinda:

For an hour long ep there was little action, just a series of set pieces. The aeroplane scenes seemed more padding.

No big revelations. And the Master's plan was a bit eh
Although all the graveyard scenes were excellent, tackling and confronting the nature of the Doctor.

The imagery of the Cybermen rising from the graves - excellent. And a good reason why cremation may be a good idea. :longwink:

Osgood dying not nice.
Return of the Brig - not sure about.

Capaldi now is the Doctor.

Then there was that final scene. :wtf:

Father Christmas v Ice Warriors for Xmas Day !!!


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:59 pm 
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jumpin' jellybean wrote:

Actually fuck off. I figured Danny could control himself, and his inhibitor wasn't activated because he hadn't pressed "delete", but then did the Brig not press "delete" either? Just those two? Or is it coz they're super special? Or is it because reasons?

No, I'm sorry, there are cheap emotional ploys and there's showing the Brig perverted and abused as a cheap emotional ploy. I wasn't sure whether I wanted to vomit or punch something more. It's even worse now that Nick Courtney is no longer with us. That's exploiting both in-universe and real life emotions, and for what? A salute.


Pretty much this. Most of this was going through my mind when he appeared. The emotionally manipulated part of me wants to say yay. But on so many levels this is wrong.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:16 pm 
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On the plus side, at least he's still dead.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:50 pm 
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Not sure how I feel about this episode. Good I think. Certainly not great and I didn't hate it either.

Good:
The character arc- The most important part of the story was The Doctor's character. He is put into two positions of absolute power, the one thing he would never want, which finally helps him find himself.
Missy- Absolutely insane but in a charming way. I also liked her plan was a return to older idea that The Master does all these things primarily as a way to annoy The Doctor.
Clara- I think Jenna's acting was brilliant in those scenes, perfectly capturing her horror.


Bad:
Cyber-ironman- I think Moffat took the jokes last year and just decided to go the whole hog. There were scenes seemingly transposed from Iron Man 3.
Osgood- Cheap death, much like Lynda with a Y. As soon as The Doctor offered her travel she would die. (Don't agree with JJ that it is substantively different from Whedon or Martin, but that's another discussion).
Cyber-brig- Err, what? Is he is still hanging around fighting crime and complaining about the cost of helicopter. (My wife suggested he was handles but that was even more depressing).
Nothing is really tied up- Most of the big questions still remain so either Clara is coming back or we are just going to get a lot of threads left hanging.

I think it's the second worst finale after Last of the Time Lords (my personal order is: BB, NotD, D, WoRS, JE, PotW, DiH, LotTL)

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:52 pm 
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Of Mars wrote:
My overall thoughts about this episode are summed up in one nice neat word - Embarrassing.
If some people (includind several on here) had a problem with the cremation line last week, then how will an army of CyberDead go down? And yet, that was not the worst of it...
It was so shit, I am actually having difficulty in thinking what to write. It didn't make me angry as some have, because at least I can then have a rant. This was just more like a very bad spoof, written by someone who had never seen Dr Who before, or at the very least; had once 40 years ago. Last week didn't quite reach my low expectation, but this one certainly went far below them.
Would somebody mind telling me: In what way were the Cybermen - the 2nd most iconic enemy, but often poorly used - at their "scariest" (as promised by Moffat), when all they did was look through a window, stand around doing nothing in a graveyard, and give a performance of the National Cyber Aerobics Team. That last one really was one of the most Cuthbertcringeworthy scenes for a long time.
As for "Love is not an emotion, it is a promise.", well I like a laugh but it wasn't meant to be funny now was it? Then to add insult to all the dead people, they were turned into an army after a short 'Independence Day' speech by the previously emotionless Pink - Oh well never mind, who cares about reality when people cry if the music tells them to?
I wish that had been the last thing to have been awful, but no Moffat has to quite literally dig up the grave and crap all over the memory of The Brigadier - PLEASE JUST MAKE IT STOP!!


But you legal have to give him two points now :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:00 pm 
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mozz wrote:
On the plus side, at least he's still dead.


Who the Brig. The way it was left he was an animated cyberised corpse defending the earth from alien invasion.

And as JJ eloquently indicated, Nicholas Courtney can have no input the continuation of the character as he is no longer with us.

Then there is the other possibility - the Brig was downloaded into a different corpse. The CyberBrig could in a later story be reanimated and inhabit a different body.
A way to recast the Brig and bring him back into the programme.

Now in a programme where the lead character (as well as others of his race) is recast instory this shouldn't cause a problem. But Courtney imbued the Brig with so much over such a long period it wouldn't feel like the Brig.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:01 pm 
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Voted "average". It felt rather flat and lacklustre.

I liked:

The Doctor. It is such a shame that Capaldi has been lumbered with such pants stories for his first season, as he is brilliant. It was about time that he finally clicked with himself and answered his "am I a good man?" question, but he's played the slow-realisation process well over the season.

The nods to "Night of..." and "Return of the Living Dead" - young woman in a graveyard and tainted rain making the dead rise, respectively. It could have done with, as JJ mentioned, Pat Tallman with a machine gun and the addition of Trash and Suicide from "Return of the Living Dead", just to fuck with the Cybermen some.

That Danny was able to retain some control even after he got his emotions deleted. I'm assuming that's what happened with the Brig, too, as he loved his daughter and, one has to assume, the Doctor as well.

Father Christmas/Santa/Joulupukki. Yay!

The Cybermen were (mostly) cool.

I disliked:

Danny Pink. Even more than before. The whole "officer" bollocks was just so damn irritating and pointless (the Doctor's "I know who I am" scene would have worked even without him telling Danny that he isn't an officer) and, frankly, I couldn't give two shits. I'm glad he's gone.

The Brig. Fuck Off. He deserves to rest in peace, not to be a Cyberman.

Teasing Gallifrey being back then it not being there. Just leave it the frak alone or bring it back.

The indifferent:

Clara. Meh. I'm fed up with her. In fact, I'd rather have Martha back. Actually, Martha, Mickey and Capaldi's Doctor would rock.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:14 pm 
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Basileus wrote:
mozz wrote:
On the plus side, at least he's still dead.


Who the Brig. The way it was left he was an animated cyberised corpse defending the earth from alien invasion.

And as JJ eloquently indicated, Nicholas Courtney can have no input the continuation of the character as he is no longer with us.

Then there is the other possibility - the Brig was downloaded into a different corpse. The CyberBrig could in a later story be reanimated and inhabit a different body.
A way to recast the Brig and bring him back into the programme.

Now in a programme where the lead character (as well as others of his race) is recast instory this shouldn't cause a problem. But Courtney imbued the Brig with so much over such a long period it wouldn't feel like the Brig.


No, I meant Danny. What was done to the Brigadier is unforgivable.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:17 pm 
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I...wasn't a fan. The idea of cybermen using dead people to make more cybermen and rising from the grave like they did should have been chilling, but it was all a bit meh.

I feel like Missy's motivations could have been better explored. She randomly kills people and justifies it by saying she's bananas ( :banana: ) but that's not really a reason is it? She didn't need to kill Osgood it was just a cheap ploy to shock the audience. I kind of get the impression that what they were aiming for was that moment in The Avengers when Loki stabs Coulson and everyone goes 'OMG NO NOT COULSON', but where that worked because we had gotten to know Coulson over the previous few films to the point where his death meant something, Osgood's was just meaningless.

The same with Danny really. If we had gotten to know him better, if perhaps he had been something other than Clara's boyfriend and shown a bit of personality it would have been more emotional. Personally I found it all a bit cloying. It felt like someone sat there and thought 'YES. THIS WILL BE EMOTIONAL' rather than taking the time and effort in character development that it needed to actually make it emotional.

Add me to the list of people annoyed by the use of the Brig too. I have barely seen any classic Who, but even I recognised it as a cheap ploy to make people emote. I wonder if the family were consulted?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:57 am 
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Well, after a brilliant part one, part two fell more than a little flat. Much here I liked, but some pretty awful bits that stopped it being classic.

The "Clara as Doctor" red herring of the pre-title sequence would probably have made a better episode than what we got, tbh. I squealed like a fanboi at the title sequence, Jenna's name first, her eyes, etc, yet within 10 seconds the bubble had burst. Everything I hate about MoffHu.

Loved Michelle Gomez, but seriously, the baddie's plan has got to make sense. It's not enough to have a villian come up with some ridiculous plan just because, you know, bananas. Is it that difficult to write a serious plot?

I watched "Tomb of the Cybermen" on Drama on Sunday afternoon - now that's how to write a Cybermen story. The difference between the two was staggering. The one that was 47 years old was about 47 times as good.

Oh, and did I miss something? I thought the Brigadier was "Lost in Peru" - when did he die? And what a way to treat an iconic Who character - turning into a Cyberman? Fuck off.

I hate to sound like Comic Book Guy, but Worst Series Ever (still the best thing on TV, but that ain't saying much).

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:03 am 
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Curious Orange wrote:
Loved Michelle Gomez, but seriously, the baddie's plan has got to make sense. It's not enough to have a villian come up with some ridiculous plan just because, you know, bananas. Is it that difficult to write a serious plot?


Well she didn't just ally with the cybermen and get surprised when they betray her. By her former standards this one is water tight. :longwink:

Curious Orange wrote:
Oh, and did I miss something? I thought the Brigadier was "Lost in Peru" - when did he die?


Wedding of River Song. The Doctor calls his nursing home and the carer informs The Doctor he had passed on.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:54 pm 
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it was ok until the Missy Mary Poppins moment and the salute to the cyber brig .... overall my worst season since the return and my least favorite Doctor although the last 5 or 6 episodes did help to change my opinion of the Doc

its just not must see viewing for me at the moment

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:10 pm 
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Does anyone else think it would have been far better if the Doctor had simply found the wreckage of the plane and saluted the remains of the picture than have the Brig as a Cyberman? It could have been just as powerful an end, and shown a bit more respect.


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